Ep #146: Celebrating Pride with Dr. Sonia and Dr. Kimmery

You are listening to The Midlife Sex Coach for Women™ Podcast episode 146.

Welcome to The Midlife Sex Coach for Women™ Podcast, the only show that combines a fun personality, medical knowledge, sexual counseling, and life coaching together. To create unique sex coaching that helps busy women awaken their libidos, address intimacy issues, and learn how to express their sexuality for the rest of their days. Here is your host, certified life coach and sexual counselor, Dr. Sonia Wright.

Hello Diamonds, how are you doing? We are recording this podcast, I don’t even know what time. It’s almost nine o’clock at night. I’m actually in my pajamas. If you ever see this on the YouTube channel, you will see that I am in my pajamas. But we are about to go on holiday and I wanted to record this before we left for our honeymoon. Dr. Kimmery and I are on this call and Pride Month is just so important for us. And I wanted to make sure that I got this message out for all my Diamonds, no matter what your sexual orientation is.

But also for people that are queer just because this time is not the easiest time in America for people in terms of their sexual orientation is not the standard heterosexual. It feels like we’re under attack to a certain extent and at the same time I’ve been out for a number of years. And we’re going to talk about coming out. And I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen the wave of acceptance and then going back to more of this time in our nation where there’s not necessarily as much acceptance as there was previously.

But also as a person of color, it’s not something new to me but it is, it feels a little bit more of a sad time in this nation as well. This is an amazing place. And when we focus on our differences, we’re just not as an amazing country as we could otherwise be. But right now I just really want to celebrate Pride and Pride Month and all across the United States there’s activities happening this month. And I wanted to make sure that we were part of the celebration. So we are going to be discussing a number of different issues, I wrote it down here so I’m going to just grab it.

And it was so funny and I’m not sure if I’m going to say this correctly but we saw this comedy skit that was done by Chelsea Handler and she was talking about, what exactly, what does she call it?

Kimmery: Late onset lesbianism.

Sonia: Late onset lesbianism. And she said that nine out of ten of her friends had converted, that this late onset lesbianism was happening all over the place. And that’s one of the things that we wanted to talk about today was just coming out in terms of being aware of your sexual orientation and feeling comfortable enough to decide this is what you’d like to do and who you want to show up as. And maybe you didn’t have as many opportunities in the past.

So I really wanted to talk about sexual orientation and coming out maybe later in life. And just a number of different issues that came up for myself and Kimmery and maybe for other midlife women that are experiencing similar things at this point in time. I’ve definitely coached a number of women on sexual orientation and coming out. And sometimes it’s a shock to them, sometimes it’s something that they have known their whole life, but they did not feel that it was safe enough to be themselves.

And so at this time I definitely want to celebrate everyone and your uniqueness and to be a place of support. And hopefully if you hear something on this call that helps you wherever you are, that’s definitely what we would like. So let’s start a little bit and talk about coming out later in life, coming out in midlife, coming out over 40. I think I was, when I officially came out, I was maybe about 38 or 39. And I think I’ve told this story before that I had realized in my late 20s that I actually was attracted to women, I was already married.

So I was just like, “Well, I’m not necessarily going to be dealing with that situation.” But after my divorce I got to the place where I was more like, “Okay, this is who I am.” And then I went and I kind of transitioned and came out actually, a friend outed me at work and then I was like, “Okay, well, I’m out now.” So that being the case, that’s how my journey went. But coming out at 40 is a different thing than coming out in your 20s.

So coming out in your 40s is definitely a place where it’s like coming home, and it may be the same coming out in your 20s, I don’t know exactly what that experience is like. But I know that it’s when you get to that place in your life where you just want to be your authentic self. You really don’t care what other people are thinking. You just know you have this one life and you want to lead it and you just want to be yourself. And there’s a lot of beautiful things that came with coming out.

And for me, eventually I’ve settled, I’ve gone through this long saga in terms of heterosexual then being a lesbian then kind of back to men for a little while and settling into pansexuality. And then just saying, “You know what? I’m queer.” That covers, that encompasses it all. And this is really a spectrum. For some people they just know exactly who they are and what their sexual orientation is. And for other people it can be more of a floating, a shifting kind of experience.

But for me, I came out in my late 30s and it’s been like an exploration and a beautiful time of getting to know who I am and becoming comfortable with that. What would you say, you’ve heard me talk about this now, what are some of the commonalities or some things that ring true for you when you hear me talking about this?

Kimmery: Yeah. Well, I actually came out in my late 30s as well. I think I was 38 when I decided that I was going to be who I was made to be. And I was living a, I won’t say a lie, I wasn’t my authentic self, I can tell you that, sexually. And I always tried to conform to the heteronormativity. And yeah, it just, it led to a lot, a lot of mental health struggles, a lot of trauma and a lot of loss when I did come out. And so the journey is timing wise about the same, but just a bit different when it comes to circumstances and that sort of thing.

Sonia: Yeah. I mean for me I really didn’t lose anybody when I came out. I mean I had lived in San Francisco for many years before, I actually came out when I lived in Minnesota, and I was in a relatively small, more conservative place. I had been 20 years in San Francisco and I didn’t come out then and then I moved in Minnesota to a small conservative town or a small conservative city. And then I came out at that point and was just kind of a fun thing to do.

But in terms of living my life and the people that were my allies, my friends, it didn’t feel, I didn’t lose anybody. I told my family and they were like, “Alright, fine, whatever.” My friends were like, “Whatever, it sounds good to me.” So there wasn’t really anything or anyone that I lost. It could be very different depending on, I mean people lose jobs, people lose friends, people could lose a whole religious community. There’s a lot that can go into this. So I definitely don’t take it lightly.

Kimmery: Yeah. And for me some of those losses were exactly what you talked about, religious community and that was a struggle for me. I devoted a lot of my time and energy into serving and church settings and people and that sort of thing. And some of those people were the very ones who rejected me. And so it was really a difficult journey of sorts, really to have people just literally be like, “Sorry, I don’t agree with you so we’re done”, kind of thing, or, “I don’t accept you as you are, so we’re done.”

One thing that’s really interesting though is that I did, when I came out to my family officially and just said, “I’m a lesbian.” First I came out as bisexual because that is seen as more acceptable in society where she likes men and women, okay, cool, alright. Well, I can get down with that. And then when I really discovered that I just loved women, that was a hard one to come out with. And I didn’t want to say anything to my family until I had someone that I was with and I knew that was going to be a long term commitment and relationship.

And so I told a few people who I trusted and close to me in my family, my mom, my sister and my cousin who’s pretty much my big sister. And when I did come out they were all kind of like, “Finally.” They were like, “Finally.” And it was really surprising. So I appreciate the positive and the supportive parts of it and I can also appreciate the difficulties that lie within as well.

Sonia: Yeah, because you lost, not that you need to elaborate on it more, you did lose a very close person to you. And so it’s kind of like for our listeners to understand that you don’t know how this is going to be taken. You don’t know if your family’s just going to be like, “Well, yeah, duh.” Or if your family is going to be like, “You’re dead to me.” You just don’t know what’s going to happen. And that’s the hardest thing is that people that you have loved all your life may just turn their back on you. That is a hard thing.

And that’s part of the reason why we celebrate Pride, is being proud of who we are and acknowledging the courage that it takes to come out when you could possibly lose everything and everyone. So I definitely don’t take this time lightly. I did want to have some conversation, some kind of interesting conversations. And one of the places since we’re both women that came out in our late 30s, early 40s and we’ve been in situations where we were in relationships previously with men and then transitioned over to coming out of our sexual orientation and be in relationships with women.

What were some beliefs and ideas that you found that it was time to release, things that you had always thought that it would be this way in your belief system. And then you’re like, “Wait, I’m with a woman now, I don’t have to focus on that, I don’t need to deal with that?”

Kimmery: Wow, that’s a very interesting question. And you and I have had some conversations back and forth just in the context of our own relationship, some of those things that need to be released. And one of them really is, it really is just kind of mostly related to the way in which you show up in the relationship in your identity. And most people believe there has to be one person, if you’re the same gender, has to be one person who is kind of the ‘man’ and one person who’s the ‘woman’ even if they are people of the same gender.  And it doesn’t really work that way.

And both people are allowed to have both sides of themselves show up. Whereas in some of the heterosexual relationships I’ve been in, some of the men have kind of been intimidated by some of my stronger personality traits which at that time I didn’t know were my traits in my identification as a more masculine woman. And it was that women are demur and they are tender and only, there was no room for the strong personality, the strong mindset, the strong body that I had. Yeah, it was intimidating to a lot of people.

So even one thing with women is that there is an appreciation for both, all sides and all parts. And I don’t have to pretend to be one or the other. I can be both and.

Sonia: Yeah. I remember when my son was about maybe eight years old and [inaudible], he said to me, “Mommy, you’re about 70% woman or female and about 30% male.” He recognized my male energy even at that time. And it’s interesting that things that have changed, I tend to be, well, I definitely am attracted to more masculine females. And I tend to love to be in butch fem dynamics. It’s not necessarily how other people that might identify as queer want to be.

And there’s sexual orientation, which is who you’re attracted to and then there’s your gender identity and expression. And so those are two separate things but sometimes when people express themselves in more masculine, if a woman looks more masculine and another woman looks more feminine. Sometimes it can have the dynamics of a heteronormative type of relationship. I’m a bit butch fem dynamics but not all people necessarily like that. And you can be non-binary. It doesn’t necessarily work out that way but I enjoy that energy and so that’s why I like to be in those types of relationships.

But I think that it’s important to understand that everybody gets to choose the relationship that works for them. And just because on the outside it looks like one person wears the pants and the other person, the more feminine woman, does not. But within the relationship it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. And so it’s almost like you get to make the rules of your relationship. And honestly this is within anybody’s relationship, they get to make the rules.

But when you’re in a relationship where the heteronormative concepts do not necessarily roll within the relationship then it’s like all bets are off and all bets are on. You get to be exactly who you want to be. But sometimes, it’s been interesting as we’ve been in a relationship and your gender expression is also changing and your concepts of who you like to be and being in a relationship with a woman that looks more feminine but has a masculine energy as well.

It’s interesting, the dynamics that have developed in our relationship and most of the time I find it amusing, sometimes I find it frustrating.

Kimmery: But let me just say you all, don’t let this sweet face and this lipstick and those dimples fool you. There is a strong masculine presence underneath that and it’s something that I really, really appreciate and recognize in Dr. Sonia. And it’s something that’s very attractive to me. And her feminine side is something that was very attractive to me as well. And I never thought, I never thought I would be attracted to someone who is as feminine as Dr. Sonia.

And you often see her on this YouTube channel, those of you who are watching, she’s very beautiful and really pleasant to look at. And I think that some people underestimate that and think that that’s the only energy she has and it’s not true. And then people look at me and how I present and they make their assumptions based on that, I think within the last two, three weeks I’ve been called sir, sir, ma’am, sir, ma’am, sir more times than I can count probably. And in the past that’s something that would have bothered me because I was trying to hide who I was.

And tried to make very sure that my presentation was as feminine as it could be, but it didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother me at all. And I think that that speaks to the changing dynamics of identity that you’re talking about in our relationships and it is frustrating sometimes as I go through some of these ups and downs and things like that, trying to figure out who I want to be and how I want to show up in our relationship.

Sonia: Yeah. So in a lot of ways it’s a blessing to be queer and your sexual orientation is not what society says it should be because then you get to make who you are, how you show up in a relationship, and what it is. And then at the same time there’s no rules. So it can be great and it could be overwhelming and it could be all those different things. Sometimes just having the structure of what a heteronormative relationship should be and how a person with certain heterosexual orientation should act in society. You don’t have to think.

You don’t have to think as much, I don’t want to make it seem like, but there’s certain rules and you get to adhere to those rules. But if you choose not to adhere to those rules then at the same time, sometimes it feels like you don’t know who you are and how you’re showing up. You’re continually exploring and I think that this is something that we all do but sometimes when you’re in a society that says it should be this way and you choose something else, it can have blessings and then it can also have some confusion associated with it.

So how would you say that you show up, notice that when I’m in a relationship with a woman I allow more of my masculine energy to come out, even though I love being very feminine but my personality has some masculine aspects to it. Which when I was in relationships with men, they wouldn’t necessarily appreciate. But that was kind of earlier on in my life when I was adhering to what a heteronormative type of situation relationship should be. Going back into relationships with men in my 40s and 50s, it had kind of a different bent on it.

I was more true to who I was because I knew who I was. And I was like, “If you like me, this is who I am and if you don’t like me, that’s alright.” So I think that part of it is also as you get older you become more comfortable expressing who you are and showing up just who you are in whatever relationship you are in and not taking on concepts that were applied upon you based on your gender at birth and what your perceived sexual orientation is. Because if people look at me they think you’re kind of feminine appearing, Sonia, you must like men.

I do like men and I also like women and I also like just about anything in between depending on who that person is and the personality that they have. So how did you show up when you were in relationships with men versus how you show up when you’re in a relationship with women?

Kimmery: Well, I need to start first, the way that I show up in relationships with women and the way I show up with you is very masculine and very soft and gentle. And I treat you the way, it’s a combination of how the best men I’ve ever been with, treated me.

Sonia: Yeah. And can we stop for a moment and celebrate all those amazing men out there because we learned a lot from them, we took the best out of them. So it’s definitely not a podcast where we’re putting down men at all. There are so many amazing men out there and thank you for being who you are.

Kimmery: Yeah. And it gave me a guidepost really for what I wanted to be and who I wanted to be in, in relationships with women. But the way that I showed up with most men was kind of hands off, not as forward, didn’t really make my needs known, kind of allowed them to lead because that’s what a man is ‘supposed to do’. And a good woman, good partner, good wife allows their husband to lead, their partner to lead. And so the way that I showed up then was very, in a lot of ways, not always, in a lot of ways, passive and not assertive as much, if that makes sense.

Sonia: That tendency and part of it is from my own history, not to be as open and trusting towards men as I am towards women. So there’s a part of me that’s much more guarded, I have to say. So yeah, I can understand that.

Kimmery: Yeah, just try to feel it out, what kind of dude is this? And it was even harder, we went to the age of online dating. And you just didn’t know what you were going to get when it came to men. And when I started dating women it was much, I felt more comfortable meeting up and I felt more comfortable with knowing that I was going to be perceived as I was.

And not feeling like I was going to have to change anything or I did change a bit, got rid of all of my wardrobe last summer and yeah, repurposed it all, gave it away and started being like I really wanted to show up best too. So that was helpful for me because I can truly be me. There is no expectation that I would be anything other than myself when it comes to being with women.

Sonia: And so how do you think that, this is a midlife podcast about sex so let’s talk about sex. How do you show up differently? I know for me there’s much more of a freedom around it. Once again it was not defined by society what it should be so I get to make it what I want. And I think I became much more focused on my own pleasure and my own body and how it worked. And I also had more of a freedom because honestly I didn’t have as much concerns about my safety with women.

And then also because there were no rules, you got to make the rules. You get to figure out what it is. So there is a lot of fun in it. There’s a lot of exploration. There’s a lot of freedom there. And I think that that has informed a lot of the work that I do now as the midlife sex coach for women, is the exploration that I went on for many years. I mean I’m 56 so I’ve been at this in one form or another for 16 years. But at the same time that does not stop us from having sexual difficulties as well.

So if we look at, society says it’s okay for women to have sex with women and you see a lot of that in pornography as entertainment for men and things like that. And so there is this perception that it’s just fun and amazing and whatever, but at the same time just like anybody and everybody you can have sexual difficulties. And so we have things called lesbian sex bed and death bed. But before, lesbian sex bed, I kind of like that one.

Kimmery: Yeah, let’s go with it.

Sonia: And then let’s be a death bed but before I get to a lesbian death bed and libido issues and things like that, that people of all sexual orientations have to deal with. And what do you think? You don’t specifically have to talk about our sex lives, thank you very much. But what do you think in terms of things have shifted for you, sex with men versus sex with women?

Kimmery: So sex with men I was very, whatever they want, whatever they wanted me to do, whatever position that they wanted me to be in, okay with not achieving orgasm because whatever. And that was just kind of how it went. That’s what I knew and so when I started having sex with women that dynamic changed fairly quickly. And a part of me that wasn’t really present showed up and that part of me is one of a very, I wouldn’t say aggressive type of energy but very, what’s the word you would use to describe it, Dr. Sonia, because I can’t think of a word?

Sonia: It’s a combination of pleasure pleasing and dominant.

Kimmery: Okay, yeah. My joy comes from pleasing my partner. My excitement comes from pleasing my partner. And that has changed significantly for me. And there are times when I don’t need any type of stimulation at all because I’ve pleased my partner and that’s where I get my pleasure from. And so that all has changed. And my mindset towards sex has changed too. And I realized that I can have fun having sex, it is enjoyable and I like having it a lot.

Whereas when I was with men, it was okay, you want to, okay, fine, kind of thing. I wasn’t really wanting it and realizing that was because I didn’t want to have a penis near me.

Sonia: Alright, getting back on track, I’m trying to figure out how to segue that one. Okay. I’m laughing but it’s very true. If it’s not the person or the type of person, the gender that you’re attracted to, then you’re just not as into it. So yes, 100%. And at the same time it can get to this place where lesbians and other people with different sexual orientations. They have libido issues. They can have difficulties as well. So even if you’re with the person that you want to be with, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you don’t have any issues at all. We still are human beings. We still can be having issues with our libido.

We can still have times where we’re interested in sex, when we’re not interested in sex, and that’s okay.

Kimmery: Yeah, it is, it really is. And having an understanding of what my libido looks like, understanding that better than I have before has been really helpful in my sexual interactions with women because I understand my need and my desire may overwhelm people sometimes. And so I’m one that I sit back and I let my partner mostly initiate and not try and do something that won’t be comfortable for them. And it doesn’t mean that I suppress it completely. It just means that sometimes I ask. And if it’s not then okay, that’s okay.

But understanding that we don’t have to be the same. There’s no such thing as needing to have the same, there’s conversations that you have and you figure out what works and what doesn’t and you go from there. So the whole [inaudible], you don’t end up in a place where there is no conversation about it and people are just unhappy and not being able to get their sexual connection needs met. And it can just be kind of a mess.

Sonia: Yeah. I mean, yeah, what you’re talking about is mismatched libido and there is mismatched libido in our relationship. And it’s also funny because I’m just thinking about sexual relations, there are different [crosstalk] of what sexual intimacy is. And at the same time, I have been on this journey around postmenopausal libido and making sure the sexual health was there and stuff like that. And going to my doctor and being like, “My libido’s just not what it was previously and what can I do about this?”

And then saying, it’s usually only about five times a day that there’s some type of sexual intimacy happening. And just having her put down her pen and look at me. You need to leave my office right now. But at the same time my libido is responsive. And we have different libido levels. So it doesn’t matter where your baseline is compared to your partner. I have a relatively higher libido but it’s not high compared to my partner. So we are still in a mismatched libido situation. And we work on that and we have conversations.

And coming from a responsive type of libido, I have to be aware of what it is, I talk to myself, is this something I’m interested in. And then I work on the arousal gap differences and things like that. So I really want it out there for my Diamonds that this is something I work on all the time. And so at the same time being postmenopausal and having amazing sex and at the same time having mismatched libido and navigating that whole thing.

And recognizing that it’s worth putting the time and effort in there, into this relationship and into the sexual intimacy aspect of our relationship because I do want this to last for the next 40 years. And I know if I just say, “Well, my libido is shot, it’s not like it was when I was in my 30s, so therefore it’s just going to slow down and die.” Then I’m bringing this relationship down a certain path that it doesn’t necessarily have to go down. And so it’s important enough for me, for myself to do this work around libido and sexual intimacy. And it’s also important for my relationship.

So I think that in the midst of talking about sexual orientation and Pride and everything like that, I also want you to know that I work on this all the time around libido and mismatched libido and responsive libido and what that looks like.

Kimmery: And it’s important for me too, I want to say something to that as well since you did go ahead and say what your libido is. And I am spontaneous, so it’s like I see it, let’s do it kind of thing. And I let her take the lead on this because I want her to feel comfortable when there is a desire and be able to feel comfortable saying, “No, I don’t want to but I’d like to cuddle”, or something like that. And being okay with that and knowing that it’s not a rejection of me and it’s not a rejection of what I have to offer. It’s just that it’s not time right now.

And understanding that it didn’t take very long for me and I think a part of that is knowing what it’s like to be a woman. And being like, “Come on baby, please baby, please, please, please baby, please.” And you’re just like, “Fuck, okay. Fucking fine.” But understanding that and understanding that if that’s not a desire then that needs to be respected and there is no other thing that needs to be discussed.

Sonia: And then also coming from my perspective, which is my partner’s important to me, this relationship is important to me, my sexuality is important to me. The sexual intimacy in this relationship is important to me and it’s okay that I have to work at it, at all those things. Because I’m looking at the long term goal of what I want. So yes, alright, so, Diamonds, yes, you have come into the world of what’s going on in Dr. Sonia’s life and Dr. Kimmery’s life and it’s really good in a lot of ways.

And we work at this. Every day we work at this so that 40 years from now the sexual intimacy is still there. And so this is what it looks like no matter what type of relationship that you’re in. But we definitely want to celebrate Pride and just celebrate all the people that are focusing on becoming more of their authentic self and just being there for you and also wanting to say how proud we are of you and thank you for joining us on this journey and we love you. And anything else that we want to add in there, Dr. Kimmery?

Kimmery: Have fun, enjoy who you are and be safe.

Sonia: And be safe, alright, love you lots, Dr. Sonia and…

Kimmery: Dr. Kimmery out.

                                                                                                                   

Hello, hello, hello, Diamonds, have you heard the amazing news? Dr. Sonia, that would be me and my amazing team has started a sex coaching and life coaching monthly membership program called The Lit Clit Club. The Lit Clit Club was made just for you. It’s a safe place where women can come to create the lives that they want, the lives that you want. It’s a place where you get to talk openly about your sexual concerns and be heard. There’s no judgment, no reprimand, no labels, just acceptance, knowledge and freedom.

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Do you have questions about libido, menopause? Lord help us, menopause is no joke. Sexual health, relationships, sexual orientation, pleasure equality and orgasms, religion and intimacy? I am not finished with this list yet. Maybe you have questions about toys, maybe about non-monogamy. Perhaps you’re interested in BDSM, maybe self-love, self-pleasure. Maybe you have questions about self-orientation. Maybe you need to work on healing from trauma.

Maybe body image is something that you want to focus more on and definitely embodiment. Perhaps creating the life of your dreams or journeying to your authentic self. Maybe you just want to stop people pleasing. Whatever questions you have and concerns you have, we have the answers and the coaching that you need. In all actuality, you have the answers inside of you. And the coaching will help bring that out. And you know what? You get to choose how you want to be coached.

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